So, the ACLU has succeeded in getting more Abu Graib-style photos released

Viceroy

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#1
On the one hand it allows us to gain a better understanding of the extent of the abuse. On the other, it may place American troops in more danger and give more fight to the insurgency in Iraq.

Your thoughts?
 

Devastation

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#2
Although I agree that these photos are helpful in allowing us to acknowledge the extent of the "torture" in question, which will further allow us to punish those responsible for the said actions, yes, this will cause further harm to our troops, and for the safety of our troops, we should wait to disclose these photos to the public until a pullout has been made possible.
 

Viceroy

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By the time we pull out of Iraq Bush will be long gone. I think one of the most important reasons these photos should be released now is that it allows a degree of accountability which would be impossible if Bush was no longer President.
 

Devastation

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#4
Viceroy said:
By the time we pull out of Iraq Bush will be long gone. I think one of the most important reasons these photos should be released now is that it allows a degree of accountability which would be impossible if Bush was no longer President.
If you're saying that Bush ordered the said torture, then I see your point.

However, I find it hard to believe that Bush wanted that to happen.

The people at fault here, in my opinion, which is built from the evidence I've seen whenever these things come out, is that guards, soldiers, and officers were behind it.

They need to be punished, but quietly.
 
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Viceroy

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#5
DeVaSTaTioN said:
If you're saying that Bush ordered the said torture, then I see your point.

However, I find it hard to believe that Bush wanted that to happen.

The people at fault here, in my opinion, which is built from the evidence I've seen whenever these things come out, is that guards, soldiers, and officers were behind it.

They need to be punished, but quietly.
I doubt it was as clear as "I want you to abuse the prisoners in your charge", but it wouldn't surprise me if Bush and Rumsfeld knew roughly what was going on. In fact I got the impression that the only thing they felt was unfortunate about the whole scandel was not that it occured, but that it was discovered because someone was dumb enough to photograph the event.
 

TFS

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#6
I do recall that when the story broke, the commanding officer tried to dodge responsibility by saying she had not known about it due to her not going around and checking up on operations regularly as she was supposed to.

It backfired as she basically admitted incompetence and irresponsibility, and was removed from her position soon after. Not sure what happened to her since, but her replacement came in and opened everything up for investigation to get to the bottom of it.

So, no reports were filled out about it, no one knew what was going on, including Bush, because any reports filled out in that time were obviously lies if she wasn't doing her job.

I think that the photos should be with held for the time being, anyway, so as to stave off any more unnecessary violence against our troops. But they definitely need to be made public down the road sometime.
 
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#8
To be honest, I'm not sure how the soldiers serving in Iraq and Afghanistan could be put in any more danger then they already are. After all, they're being shot at and bombed daily. It just seems rather impossible, imo, to get people into any more of a frenzy then they already are in when it comes to our involvement.
 

Kazimierz

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#9
More photos being released is important, to identify who was involved, and the extent of the torture. It is also, however, dangerous to our troops, but i think the damage in that department has been done already. These people are criminals and responsible for American deaths as far as i'm concerned, and should all be punished. This sets a horrible example for our soldiers, makes us look even more terrible in the eyes of the people we are "saving," and costs us credibility in the eyes of the world.
 

TFS

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#10
You remember when this story originally hit? How about anytime a story like this hits? It is immediately followed by a spike in violence in the Mid-East.

Also, the danger may not be immediate, but terrorists/insurgents/whoever will use the pictures as propoganda to help sway young, impressionable people to join them, increasing the number of enemies we have to deal with. What if they get some genius prodigy that just needed proper guidance and he would have wound up winning the nobel peace prize, but instead he's a terrorist mastermind because of a picture taken out of context. It's a huge stretch, I'll admit, but then again, strange shit happens all the time. I bet had his parents loved him, Hitler could have been a great motivational speaker, artist, and best-selling author.
 
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#13
I think the photos should be reviewed by military officials in private, not by the supreme court or anything public like that. The people who take part in this kind of thing need to be punished. I don't see any other reason to release the photos though. I think organizations and people like the ACLU just want more photos released so they can have more ammo against Bush and the war (in one of the hallways in my school there was a wall dedicated to the anti-war, anti-Bush people that had a poster of one of the prisoners standing on a box or something with a bag over his head, his image shadowed over an American flag and on the bottom it said "Got Democracy?"). I don't see the whole Abu Ghraib thing as being a legitimate arguement against the war or its cause. I really don't think a 19-year-old Pfc. from a Kentucky chicken farm and her little exploits should be used against a war fought by thousands of others for what most believe is for Democracy (I'm not saying it is or it isn't, but I'm just setting up the situation).
The pictures'll just be used by the terrorists and insurgents to become angrier and fight with more conviction.
 

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#14
AssClown said:
I think the photos should be reviewed by military officials in private, not by the supreme court or anything public like that. The people who take part in this kind of thing need to be punished. I don't see any other reason to release the photos though. I think organizations and people like the ACLU just want more photos released so they can have more ammo against Bush and the war (in one of the hallways in my school there was a wall dedicated to the anti-war, anti-Bush people that had a poster of one of the prisoners standing on a box or something with a bag over his head, his image shadowed over an American flag and on the bottom it said "Got Democracy?"). I don't see the whole Abu Ghraib thing as being a legitimate arguement against the war or its cause. I really don't think a 19-year-old Pfc. from a Kentucky chicken farm and her little exploits should be used against a war fought by thousands of others for what most believe is for Democracy (I'm not saying it is or it isn't, but I'm just setting up the situation).
The pictures'll just be used by the terrorists and insurgents to become angrier and fight with more conviction.
If it was kept in the military, then nobody would know about it, and they could ignore it and cover it up for all anyone else knew. That's not justice. The public has a right to view these images, know what is happening, and to not be lied to with propaganda about sunshine and butterflies. She was not the only one, there were many others punished, and many others who should be punished for their involvement, or punished for not being involved enough to have stopped it.

These pictures will make the insurgents angrier, and they have every right to be angry. How angry do you get when you see our soldiers beheaded? Dragged through the streets? We cannot expect to be welcomed by the people and trusted by the population if we're committing the same kinds of crimes as A. Saddam, and B. The Insurgents.
 

pidgeball6

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#15
Kazimierz said:
If it was kept in the military, then nobody would know about it, and they could ignore it and cover it up for all anyone else knew. That's not justice. The public has a right to view these images, know what is happening, and to not be lied to with propaganda about sunshine and butterflies. She was not the only one, there were many others punished, and many others who should be punished for their involvement, or punished for not being involved enough to have stopped it.
Not necessarily. The Abu Ghraib scandal was released to the press via news conference from the pentagon. I believe it was three days after the incident was reported to military authorities and two days after an official investigation was launched. There was no Woodward or Bernstein digging up dirt on this scandal, the military has been extremely transparent with their findings thus far, and I see nothing wrong with keeping the photos out of the public view. Provided the trials and punishments are still carried out transparently. Wasn't there a false news story that got released last year that stirred up a bunch of violence in the middle east?
 

JerkyMyTurky

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#16
I think the real reason the photos wont be released is because there is more concern about the impact these images will have on the people at home, more so than the impact it will have on insurgents and their recruitment. Those recruiting for the insurgency have plenty of propaganda material and there are plenty of potential recruits who have a great dislike to our presence there. The real fear is the dwindling approval rating and support for this already controversial war. As bad as the photos, that were released before, looked, there are far worse images that were not released. The articles describing how some of the senators reacted to the images was in of itself a good indicator of how bad the abuse was. Again, I think the main concern is the reprecussions at home, not as much as abroad, but it will undoubtly pointed as not being released because it is in the best interest of the soldiers lives and has nothing to do with political support for the war at hand.
 

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#17
pidgeball6 said:
Not necessarily. The Abu Ghraib scandal was released to the press via news conference from the pentagon. I believe it was three days after the incident was reported to military authorities and two days after an official investigation was launched. There was no Woodward or Bernstein digging up dirt on this scandal, the military has been extremely transparent with their findings thus far, and I see nothing wrong with keeping the photos out of the public view. Provided the trials and punishments are still carried out transparently. Wasn't there a false news story that got released last year that stirred up a bunch of violence in the middle east?
I'm sure there was a closed door meeting to discuss the fall-out from Abu Ghraib as soon as they caught wind of it. I'm sure, if only for the sake of the mission and lives, that it would have been supressed if they could have. I don't think they would have reported on how badly they fucked up unless it would have gotten out anyway. I don't give them the benefit of the doubt. If it could have been kept silent, they would have.
 
M

m63Steel

#18
I believe it's time we kick these traitors(ACLU) out of the country. Since when do these bastards have anything to do with what happens over there.
 

MelL

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#19
m63Steel said:
I believe it's time we kick these traitors(ACLU) out of the country. Since when do these bastards have anything to do with what happens over there.
It's about having the public know what's going on overseas in the name of our country. And just because you don't want to be fully informed about what's going on doesn't mean the ACLU are traitors.